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chocolatebanana
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 820 Threads: 55
  
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Eärendil The Mariner
Slick
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 16187 Threads: 145
Located: Ankh-Morpork Post Office
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 Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I replied several times to his post, he's just plain wrong, stubborn and really just wanted attention.
_________________
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In twilight's silver shade,
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Alone and unafraid.
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Forever bound to roam,
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The weary traveller returning home.
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chocolatebanana
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 820 Threads: 55
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Eärendil The Mariner wrote: | | I replied several times to his post, he's just plain wrong, stubborn and really just wanted attention. |
Hm, I don't know if the "attention" thing is warranted (I mean, he already has lots of that anyways), but the others may be.
I agree with you. I mean, I think all fields of art CAN be art (other people argue otherwise--with television, movies, comic books, whatever), but video games are interesting to me because of how much the participant is involved.
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"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the "Fuck you" signs in the world. It's impossible."
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Pudie
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
Posts: 8705 Threads: 567
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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They already are. I think Ebert is a very smart man that I have a huge amount of respect for. But the article comes off as just one stupid troll post.
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Eärendil The Mariner
Slick
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
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Located: Ankh-Morpork Post Office
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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He definitely was trolling with it. He linked to it like a dozen times on Twitter, never really addressed any of the good posts on the blog, and keeps track of reactions, which are still coming. I mean, he threw a bomb out there, and covered his head ahead of the shitstorm... that's trolling.
EDIT: Also, really stupid polls: http://blogs.suntimes.com/e...ey-705-pm-cd.html
_________________
Wandering the empty road,
In twilight's silver shade,
Following the hidden paths
Alone and unafraid.
Let the sunlight free the heart,
Forever bound to roam,
And let the waking morning find
The weary traveller returning home.
Last edited by Eärendil The Mariner on Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chocolatebanana
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 820 Threads: 55
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Well, don't you think he at least believes what he is saying? Trolls just say it TO stir up shit, and they don't believe what they say 99% of the time. I do think Ebert does hold his stated opinion.
_________________
"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the "Fuck you" signs in the world. It's impossible."
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Eärendil The Mariner
Slick
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 16187 Threads: 145
Located: Ankh-Morpork Post Office
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| chocolatebanana wrote: | | Well, don't you think he at least believes what he is saying? Trolls just say it TO stir up shit, and they don't believe what they say 99% of the time. I do think Ebert does hold his stated opinion. |
Not really. Anyone who states that games can never be art is just... baiting. Because that's just immensely daft.
Back in 2007, when he did this the last time, he conceded "that they could be art, just not high art", whatever the fuck that means.
As for my response, I didn't take the usual route of "What?! But look how artistic [whatever game] is!!!111" approach because that's equally stupid. I argued for the possibility of a video game being intended as art, and qualifying as such, through the medium of interactive installation art... I'll copy it from the blog:
| Quote: | First of all - I am not a "gamer", as you like to label people who are passionate about this subject. I do play games, but I'm first and foremost and artist - graphic designer, illustrator, photographer.
I'm also one of your "stupid followers" so I'll repeat my previous tweet here: you (as well as many of the people who disagree with you) are approaching this matter from the wrong direction - video games as a potential art form shouldn't be compared to film (films aren't interactive... well, if we exclude the misguided recent German attempts) or games like chess (where the challenge is intellectual, not artistic)... Citing individual and separate works of art that may be found within a video game as proof games are art is equally wrong.
The closest example is interactive installation art, because that's where the actual interaction with those who experience it completes the work itself. While the beauty of a painting means nothing without an observer, the painting doesn't respond, doesn't change - the whole point of interactive installations is that they need to be influenced by the observer in order to be complete.
(from Wikipedia)
"Interactive installation is a branch of the installation arts category. Usually, an interactive installation will often involve the audience acting on it or the piece responding to the user’s activity. There are several kinds of interactive installations produced, these include web-based installations, gallery based installations, digital based installations, electronic based installations, etc. Interactive installations are mostly seen from the 1990s, when artists are more interested in the participation of the audiences where the meaning of the installation is generated."
The fact that most video games are created to fulfill a more basic purpose (similar to that of many exploitation genre films, pop music, or hotel wall paintings), there is absolutely no reason why there can't be a bona fide video game with the same scope, intention and artistic merit as that of interactive installation art.
Now, we can argue about what "art" itself is until the end of time without a satisfying result... I'm merely referencing what is largely considered as an acceptable art form.
So, bottom line: are there video games that are works of art already? Probably not. Can there be one? Certainly. |
Also further:
| Quote: | Since you seem to be avoiding any kind of serious discussion on the topic, I'll just put a couple more thoughts out there:
- Your "baiting" on Twitter with comparisons of video games to chess or poker(!) shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what a video game fundamentally is, or more importantly - what it can be. Either that or you're jut trolling for clicks. I choose to believe in the former.
- I still say the very basic claim that you make is outright false. Just like the "video gamers" who defend their stance by citing art WITHIN particular games are wrong, so are all your assumptions about any video game ever produced, and your understanding of the very concept. You keep mentioning existing titles - whether or not any game already produced can be considered art or not is absolutely and utterly irrelevant. That was not the point of your article. You have clearly stated that you think that it is impossible (at least in any foreseeable future) for ANY game EVER to be art. And that is just plain wrong.
- I've said in my previous post that I'm an artist. I know people who have the technical knowledge needed for video game creation. I'm telling you that I could devise and create a video game which would satisfy all the criteria of the definition. And it would be interactive installation art. Why? Because I would create it with that intention. Why don't I do it then? It wouldn't sell. The effort needed for it's creation could never be justified in any way, financially or otherwise, other than a basic "Take that, Ebert" feeling which, you'll agree, would hardly be worth it.
Any...ANY video game requires thousands of work hours from a large number of individuals. Just like, you know, films. And some of the dumbest popcorn flicks have required the most work from most people. Because it sells. Investment brings money. Modern art pays the bills of a tiny number of select people, and the market is very limited. People who play video games know what they want, and they are being served on a daily basis. Any "depth", beauty, complexity, intelligent design, challenge put into a game is regarded as a bonus, because the act of playing is what makes a game worth the time or not. That is what video games currently are, but that is not all they CAN be. |
And you know what he said?
| Quote: | | Ebert: I'm not avoiding a discussion. I'm doing my best to post 1,400 comments and counting. They aren't posted automatically. |
...okay.
_________________
Wandering the empty road,
In twilight's silver shade,
Following the hidden paths
Alone and unafraid.
Let the sunlight free the heart,
Forever bound to roam,
And let the waking morning find
The weary traveller returning home.
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chocolatebanana
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 820 Threads: 55
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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I mean, he DOES have a lot to respond to, I'm sure.
He did say this: | Quote: | | Perhaps it is foolish of me to say "never," because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form. |
He should take away the word "perhaps."
I think he is being genuine about his beliefs, though I disagree with him and do agree that the comparison to chess or poker shows him not really getting it.
And I agree that POTENTIAL is such an important part of this. I don't know, but maybe when television first started out there were no television programs worthy of being called art (or maybe there were, but that's not really my point).
And he just dismisses Santiago's arguments about that, which sidesteps a very relevant idea.
_________________
"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the "Fuck you" signs in the world. It's impossible."
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Eärendil The Mariner
Slick
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 16187 Threads: 145
Located: Ankh-Morpork Post Office
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| chocolatebanana wrote: | | And he just dismisses Santiago's arguments about that, which sidesteps a very relevant idea. |
That's, I think, what gets people worked up over this: he doesn't really address any of the offered counter opinions, not in the comments, not from various more or less influential people who commented elsewhere. I mean, I saw an article somewhere where someone asked virtually ALL of the big shots running the biggest game companies for their opinions on his article. He is getting a LOT of attention, and just enjoys it without any tangible response. He is a movie critic and writer first of all, but his words obviously have a lot of weight, and I don't think he should "get away with it" like this.
_________________
Wandering the empty road,
In twilight's silver shade,
Following the hidden paths
Alone and unafraid.
Let the sunlight free the heart,
Forever bound to roam,
And let the waking morning find
The weary traveller returning home.
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chocolatebanana
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 820 Threads: 55
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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"Get away with it?" What do you want him to redo? Write another post where he ACTUALLY address counter opinions, I suppose, that good be better, right?
Yeah, well, lots of people respect/admire him, so his words means a lot to those people (and others, as well).
_________________
"If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the "Fuck you" signs in the world. It's impossible."
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Eärendil The Mariner
Slick
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 16187 Threads: 145
Located: Ankh-Morpork Post Office
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Posted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| chocolatebanana wrote: | | "Get away with it?" What do you want him to redo? Write another post where he ACTUALLY address counter opinions, I suppose, that good be better, right? |
Nothing stops him from blogging about anything. He could write a piece where he addresses some of the more valid comments. I mean, he's got plenty of options. At this point, he could write it on a piece of paper and leave it on a bench, and it would be in the news the same day.
_________________
Wandering the empty road,
In twilight's silver shade,
Following the hidden paths
Alone and unafraid.
Let the sunlight free the heart,
Forever bound to roam,
And let the waking morning find
The weary traveller returning home.
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Pudie
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
Posts: 8705 Threads: 567
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Posted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: |
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He could, you know, actually play one or two of these games a lot of people are calling art. What he's doing now is much like saying a movie is or isn't a work of art based on the trailer and production photos.
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Tycho
Joined: Oct 04, 2006
Posts: 12292 Threads: 295
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Eärendil The Mariner
Slick
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 16187 Threads: 145
Located: Ankh-Morpork Post Office
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Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Well, whaddaya know... Ebert does (sort of) respond:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/e...y_on_my_lawn.html
_________________
Wandering the empty road,
In twilight's silver shade,
Following the hidden paths
Alone and unafraid.
Let the sunlight free the heart,
Forever bound to roam,
And let the waking morning find
The weary traveller returning home.
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Eärendil The Mariner
Slick
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 16187 Threads: 145
Located: Ankh-Morpork Post Office
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Damn, someone should put up a "Don't feed the troll" sign somewhere. Ebert is getting mad hits for the follow-up post, and he's baiting further with Twitter posts, like the one with the video of a chimp playing Pac Man. 
_________________
Wandering the empty road,
In twilight's silver shade,
Following the hidden paths
Alone and unafraid.
Let the sunlight free the heart,
Forever bound to roam,
And let the waking morning find
The weary traveller returning home.
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Aram
Fussy Bitch
Joined: Apr 05, 2009
Posts: 1974 Threads: 43
Located: John Voight's ballsack
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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This subject makes me tired in the face.
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Eärendil The Mariner
Slick
Joined: Jul 02, 2005
Posts: 16187 Threads: 145
Located: Ankh-Morpork Post Office
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aram wrote: | | This subject makes me tired in the face. |
You are right. I should take my own advice.
*puts Ebert on Ignore*
_________________
Wandering the empty road,
In twilight's silver shade,
Following the hidden paths
Alone and unafraid.
Let the sunlight free the heart,
Forever bound to roam,
And let the waking morning find
The weary traveller returning home.
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